Tuesday Reads: The Snowden ConundrumPosted: July 9, 2013 Filed under: Foreign Affairs, morning reads, U.S. Politics | Tags: Barton Gellman, Bolivia, Booz Allen Hamilton, Dell, Edward Snowden, Glenn Greenwald, Jacob Applebaum, Julian Assange, Laura Poitras, Nicaragua, NSA, Pepe Escobar, Venezuela, Walter Pincus, Wikileaks 65 Comments
I’m going to focus on the Edward Snowden/NSA leaks story today, because there has been quite a bit of news breaking about it over the past few days.
As of this morning, Snowden hasn’t decided whether to accept one of the asylum offers made by three Latin American countries, Venezuela, Nicaragua, or Bolivia. From NBC News:
MOSCOW, Russia – The status of Edward Snowden’s bid for asylum in Venezuela remained unclear Tuesday after the country’s apparent deadline passed.
The Venezuelan Embassy in Moscow said it had no information on whether the fugitive NSA leaker had completed a deal that would allow him to leave the transit area of an airport in the Russian capital.
In Caracas, President Nicolas Maduro confirmed late Monday that Venezuela had received an official request for asylum from Snowden, telling reporters at a news conference that the self-declared leaker “will need to decide when he will fly here,” according to Russia Today.
Even if Snowden agrees an asylum deal with Venezuela, travel problems could take time to resolve: His U.S. passport has been canceled and U.S. allies may deny airspace to any flight on which he is believed to be traveling.
Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro called on National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden to decide if he wants to seek refuge in his country after the American reportedly sent an asylum request to Caracas.
Maduro told reporters at a press conference on Monday that the fugitive systems analyst must communicate his intent to accept Venezuela’s offer of asylum, The Wall Street Journal reported.
“He will have to say when he is flying here, if he definitely wants to come here,” Maduro was quoted as telling reporters.
He would probably have to take a private plane, which would be very expensive. Wikileaks is paying for Snowden’s expenses, but would they be able to spring for a private plane? Maybe. More on that in a minute.
One thing we know is very important to Snowden–internet access. One of the reasons he left Hong Kong for Moscow was his fear of not being able to get on the internet. From the Wall Street Journal on June 24:
A person familiar with Mr. Snowden’s case said his decision to get on a flight to Moscow was “very sudden,” made only in the day before departing. The decision was made in consultation with WikiLeaks, which encouraged Mr. Snowden to leave the city after communicating with others about his options abroad, the person said.
“He is very independent, but also very willing to listen to advice,” the person said, adding that Mr. Snowden was concerned that any further delay would result in his detainment by Hong Kong authorities. In part, Mr. Snowden’s determination to leave Hong Kong was based on the fear of losing access to the Internet—his vital link to the rest of the world—should he be detained, the person said. In part, Mr. Snowden’s determination to leave Hong Kong was based on the fear of losing access to the Internet—his vital link to the rest of the world—should he be detained, the person said.
Now Snowden is considering going to one of three countries that have limited access to the internet, according to an article by Alex Halperin at Salon. Venezuela is the best choice, with 40% of the population having internet connections. In Bolivia, it’s 30%, and in Nicaragua only 10.6%.
The Daily Beast has an article on “Wikileaks’ Money Trail” today.
Thankfully for WikiLeaks, its latest cause célèbre, Edward Snowden, is raking in some much-needed cash for the whistle-blowing organization. Snowden sympathizers have been donating generously since WikiLeaks decided to take on the NSA leaker’s case—and the organization desperately needs every dollar it can raise to stay in the black and pay for the legal fees and living costs of founder Julian Assange and now Snowden.
The money WikiLeaks has raised—nearly $90,000 in 2012, with about $1,300 coming in each day since it took Snowden under its wing—comes from people around the world, some of whom give just a few dollars to do their part in making the world a more transparent place.Assange and his team still say they need a lot more than they raise, and the organization always seems to be in the red. WikiLeaks’s operating budget was $510,197 in 2012, which is serious money, considering it is a simple .org with a staff of three paid software developers.
A look into how WikiLeaks is funded and how its money is spent reveals an irony that Assange has acknowledged: an organization dedicated to uncovering the truth keeps its finances intentionally complicated, and it’s next to impossible for donors to find out how their money is processed and where it goes.
Much more at the link. It doesn’t sound like Wikileaks would be able to fund a private plane flight, but maybe some wealthy person like Michael Moore would come through with the big bucks.
More of Snowden’s leaks about U.S. intelligence activities in other countries have been published over the past few days by Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. Greenwald published a report of Snowden’s allegations of U.S. spying in Brazil that appeared in the Guardian and in the Brazilian paper El Globo, and a report on US collaboration with Australia in collecting data was published by the Sydney Morning Herald. Snowden also released a top secret map of sites in a number of countries that collaborate with NSA in collecting intelligence data.
IMHO, it’s likely that Snowden is giving information to countries he’d like to go to. Greenwald lives in Brazil, and Wikileaks’ Julian Assange is from Australia. I say this, because Greenwald explained on Twitter that Snowden revealed classified documents in Hong Kong and in order to gain friendly treatment by the government.
The most revealing recent stories have been published by Der Spiegel, which has been given access to some of the documents Snowden stole from NSA. The latest Der Spiegel piece included a blockbuster revelation. The German magazine published a previously unknown interview with Snowden that was conducted by Laura Poitras and Jacob Applebaum in mid-May, before Snowden left Hawaii for Hong Kong.
This is stunning news, because Applebaum’s name has never been mentioned in connection with the Snowden story until now, although he (Applebaum) has been very visible on Twitter defending Snowden and hyping Greenwald’s articles.
Applebaum is a well known hacker who has been prominently associated with Julian Assange and Wikileaks. He is one of the founders of the Tor network , which promotes encryption method to help people and organizations maintain anonymity on the internet. Although he acknowledges that Tor could be giving aid an comfort to criminals such as child pornographers, he believes that privacy rights take precedence over such concerns.
Both Poitras and Applebaum have come to the attention of the U.S. government and both have been stopped and harassed on return flights to the U.S. from other countries.
Shortly before he became a household name around the world as a whistleblower, Edward Snowden answered a comprehensive list of questions. They originated from Jacob Appelbaum, 30, a developer of encryption and security software. Appelbaum provides training to international human rights groups and journalists on how to use the Internet anonymously.
Appelbaum first became more broadly known to the public after he spoke on behalf of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange at a hacker conference in New York in 2010. Together with Assange and other co-authors, Appelbaum recently released a compilation of interviews in book form under the title “Cypherpunks: Freedom and the Future of the Internet.”
Applebaum explains how he got involved.
“In mid-May, documentary filmmaker Laura Poitras contacted me,” Appelbaum said. “She told me she was in contact with a possible anonymous National Security Agency (NSA) source who had agreed to be interviewed by her.”
“She was in the process of putting questions together and thought that asking some specific technical questions was an important part of the source verification process. One of the goals was to determine whether we were really dealing with an NSA whistleblower. I had deep concerns of COINTELPRO-style entrapment. We sent our securely encrypted questions to our source. I had no knowledge of Edward Snowden’s identity before he was revealed to the world in Hong Kong. He also didn’t know who I was. I expected that when the anonymity was removed, we would find a man in his sixties.”
Please note the timeline: Poitras says Snowden contacted her in January, and Greenwald says he began working with Poitras and Snowden in February. Poitras also contacted Barton Gellman of the Washington Post in February–apparently without Greenwald’s knowlege. At some point Snowden was working for NSA as a Dell contractor, but he quit this job in order to get one at Booz Allen, where he would have access to more top secret information about U.S. spy facilities around the world. He took the job with Booz Allen sometime in March and went to a training course back in the U.S. that lasted a couple of months. According to Booz Allen, Snowden was employed by them for less than three months and was only on the job in Hawaii for about three weeks, during which time he stole four laptops full of classified documents.
There’s no doubt this operation was premeditated; Snowden admitted that in an interview with the South China Morning Post. The only real questions are whether it was initiated or aided by Julian Assange and Wikileaks and whether Jacob Applebaum aided Snowden in hacking into NSA computers. I’m not ready to argue that yet; but these new revelations, along with the fact that Wikileaks seems to have taken over communications with Snowden are certainly suggestive.
Here’s another possible piece of the timeline. In December 2012, Glenn Greenwald and some of his close friends started an organization called Freedom of the Press Foundation. Others on the board of directors of the foundation besides Greenwald are Laura Poitras and Daniel Ellsberg. According to their website, their purpose is to raise funds to support “public interest journalism.” Their criteria for choosing news organization to support is as follows:
Record of engaging in transparency journalism or supporting it in a material way, including support for whistleblowers.
Public interest agenda.
Organizations or individuals under attack for engaging in transparency journalism.
Need for support. The foundation’s goal is to prioritize support for organizations and individuals who are in need of funding or who face obstacles to gaining support on their own.
At the top of the list of organizations they support is Wikileaks.
Please note that I’m not yet proposing some grand conspiracy theory here. I’m just laying out the facts as I know them so far and connecting some dots. But some people are suggesting Wikileaks could have directed this operation. I was very surprised to see this article by Walter Pincus at the Washington Post yesterday: Questions for Snowden. Basically Pincus connected some dots and is asking some of the same questions I am asking. I’m going to excerpt a little more than I normally would from the Pincus piece. He writes:
Was he [Snowden] encouraged or directed by WikiLeaks personnel or others to take the job as part of a broader plan to expose NSA operations to selected journalists?
In the case of Pfc. Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier on trial for disclosing thousands of classified documents to WikiLeaks, it was Julian Assange and his organization who directed the collection of documents, U.S. prosecutors have alleged. While Manning’s lawyers contend there is no evidence to support that finding, prosecutors have said there are hundreds of chats between Manning and Assange and WikiLeaks lists of desired material.
In Manning’s case, WikiLeaks and its founder, Assange, determined the news organizations that initially would receive the materials.
Pincus wants to know how Snowden decided to leak to Poitras, Greenwald, and Gellman.
Did Assange and WikiLeaks personnel help or direct Snowden to those journalists?
Poitras and Greenwald have had close connections with Assange and WikiLeaks. In December 2010, Greenwald said of the British arrest of Assange: “Whatever you think of WikiLeaks, they have not been charged with a crime, let alone indicted or convicted. Yet look what has happened to them. They have been removed from [the] Internet . . . their funds have been frozen . . . media figures and politicians have called for their assassination and to be labeled a terrorist organization.”
In a June 2012 Guardian column, Greenwald wrote, “As a foreign national accused of harming U.S. national security, he [Assange] has every reason to want to avoid ending up in the travesty known as the American judicial system.”
On April 10, 2012, Greenwald wrote for the WikiLeaks Press’s blog about Poitras and WikiLeaks being targeted by U.S. government officials.
Pincus also suggests that Julian Assange knew the contents of Glenn Greenwald’s first article on Snowden’s leaks.
Poitras has been working on a film on post-9/11 America, with a focus on the NSA and in which Assange and WikiLeaks are participating. Assange confirmed this in a May 29 interview on Democracy Now’s Web site.
In that same interview, Assange previewed the first Greenwald Guardian story based on Snowden documents that landed a week later. Speaking from Ecuador’s embassy in London, Assange described how NSA had been collecting “all the calling records of the United States, every record of everyone calling everyone over years. . . . Those calling records already [are] entered into the national security complex.”
Did he know ahead of time of that Guardian story describing the U.S. court order permitting NSA’s collection of the telephone toll records of millions of American Verizon customers and storing them for years?
This post is getting way too long, but just to be fair I’ll offer another conspiracy theory from Pepe Escobar of Asia Times. I’ll quote the first few paragraphs and you can go read the whole thing if you’re so inclined.
The working title of the Edward Snowden movie is still The Spy Who Remains in the Cold. Here’s where we stand:
– Snowden could only fly out of Hong Kong because China allowed it.
– Snowden could only arrive in Moscow because Russia knew it – in co-operation with China. This is part of their strategic relationship, which includes the BRICS group (along with Brazil, India and South Africa) and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. No official source though would ever confirm it.
With the Latin American offers of asylum (Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua; even Uruguay would consider it), we’re approaching the clincher: Moscow is now calculating whether – and how – to help Snowden reach his final destination while extracting maximum political capital out of Washington.
Into this script comes roaring the coup-that-is-not-a-coup sub-plot in Egypt. Cynics’ eyebrows will be raised that just as the Barack Obama administration was going mental over the National Security Agency (NSA) spy scandal a revo-coup-o-lution explodes in Egypt. New revelations about the extent of the NSA-centric Orwellian Panopticon keep on coming, but they have been totally downgraded by US corporate media; it’s all Egypt all the time. After all, the Pentagon – to which the NSA is attached – owns the Egyptian military, something that even the New York Times had to acknowledge. 
Yet they don’t own Snowden. This has nothing to do with “terra”.
Meanwhile, the US intelligence gambit of intercepting a non-adversarial presidential plane spectacularly backfired in true Mad magazine Spy vs Spy fashion. Obama had said he would not “scramble fighter jets” to catch Snowden; of course not, just ground them.
Austrian paper Die Presse revealed that the US Ambassador in Austria, William Eacho, was responsible for spreading the (false) information about Snowden being on board Bolivia President Evo Morales’ Falcon out of Russia – leading to the denial of overflying rights in France, Spain, Portugal an Italy.  Eacho – a former CEO of a food distribution company with no diplomatic experience whatsoever – was appointed by Obama to go to Vienna in June 2009. Why? Because he was a top Obama fundraiser.
Read the rest at Asia Times. BTW, I’m not sure both of these conspiracy theories couldn’t be at least partially true.
Thanks for reading, and I look forward to your reactions.
A number of news organizations reported that Snowden had accepted Venezuela’s offer of asylum, but it turns out a Russian official jumped the gun, according to USA Today.
Glenn Greenwald has released an e-mail he sent to Walter Pincus in which he accuses Pincus of lying and publishing false information. It’s very a very long, pompous diatribe, so I won’t paste it here. Here’s the link.
Interestingly, Greenwald tries to muddy the waters on Snowden’s employment at Booz Allen by claiming that since Snowden worked as an NSA contractor for four years.
Geez, all the big egos and their personal agendas involved here are making this so confusing!!!!
While Walter Pincus was debunking the phony “intelligence” which got us into the Iraq war, Greenwald was supporting Bush and the war. Greenwald should shut his fucking pie hole and go straight to Hell.
Great point, Ralph! Greenwald has lots to answer for in this story which was full of holes from the start as has been discovered by all the good, honest reporting as has been done here for one. Greenwald’s ego and his hatred of everything American (as far as I can see) clouds his judgement. He’s a lot like North Korea in: “‘baby will not be put in a corner”. LOL But, like North Korea, his immaturity is tiresome among other things.
It’s his self righteous persona and brigade of incurious followers that really puh me to dislike just about everything he does. You called it right as childish and tiresome.
Hey! Nobody puts the epic Dirty Dancing in the corner with these yahoos 😉
Holy moly, I have to re-read this post BB. I want to say Excellent work and press a WTF button at the same time 😉
Thanks. I actually don’t think Wikileaks originated this. I do think it’s possible that Snowden had some help from Jacob Applebaum with ecrypting his communications.
I think you’re right and Wikileaks came in opportunistically to raise a load of money. But Snowden would not have done this without support from Poitras and probably Greenwald. He seems really too nervous about being dragged fully into it.
I know, BB you kicked ass with this post.
I love you, JJ.
coming in at fortyfour.
what JJ said and with which cygnus, RalphB and Fannie concurred. BB, I continue to look forward to reading your work in toto but especially with this troubling topic. Thank you!
Thanks, you guys.
Holy mama! I think I’m going to this today….
Oh if you do please tell us about it.
Of course 😉
I can’t wait!
I posted a couple photos to the Sky Dancing page on FB.
I’m thinking: ‘Ignore what everyone says, and consider only what they are doing.’
From that I would guess Snowden’s a nut who leaks like a sieve without trying, Poitras and Greenwald are pursuing a story according to their respective abilities, and Appelbaum is a self-parodying radical nerd acquaintance of Poitras.
You’re probably right, but it’s so much more fun to connect dots.
It would not be responsible if we didn’t speculate 😉
It’s what we do.
No, it’s not The Onion. It’s ABC News:
Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops
“Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.”
*more banging of head against desk*
Don’t hit your head, get even:
That is priceless Mona, and the comments are hysterical (or should that be testicular?).
Maybe we could get Dr. BB to define this “mental illness” in psychological terms. Also known as testosterone poisoning. Signs of this illness include: propensity to violence, need to control women in particular, incapable of using reason, argumentative, doesn’t understand the meaning of the word NO – for starters. Recommended treatment, a lobotomy.
Testerical is really just a product of socialization, it’s a social disease. Need a sociological diagnosis. Freud’s attempt to explain it was to make everything about the penis….Radfem Shulamith Firestone would have called it a disease of power, not the penis 😉
Sweet baby Jesus in a raft. And, WTF?!
Holy Hannah! Edward Snowden Stars In North Korean Propaganda Video
I am so sick of Snowden… Is this for real or someone else doing a parody? I’m afraid to click
Oh gosh. I just clicked it. Holy Hanna
Barberra… This is like a cartoon, every frame just gets more absurd
It’s really stupid but very N Korean.
Yeah. I can’t wait for silly mustached John Bolton to weigh in
Oh, boy. Baby will not be put in the corner: that’s North Korea all over. Spotlight envy. Sheesh. Interesting though they didn’t offer Snowden a lift over to their spartan human and civil rights enclave. *big eye roll*
Lol. Well I’m guessing he wouldn’t be as enthused to have John Kerry pick him up from North Korea the way Laura and Euna were happy to see Bill Clinton!
Has he ever been to N. Korea? Didn’t think so, can’t help but wonder if he knew he was going to be featured?
Thank you for putting this together. It is a great read. I have to confess that my eyes glaze over at the mention of Snowden lately but you have successfully compiled some really interesting information. I would like to comment further but I feel my knowledge of the entire affair is insufficient. However I can say that I think Wikileaks’ association with Snowden has damaged their credibility and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I am more inclined than you to believe that Wikileaks has been a part of this whole thing from the beginning. Snowden does not seem to be smart enough.
Thanks for reading and commenting, Janicen. I appreciate it.
Today in the Whitey Bulger trial, Kevin Weeks (former friend of Bulger) threatened the defense attorney with physical violence. Weeks admitted he and Bulger once plotted to murder Herald columnist Howie Carr with a c-4 bomb. Bulger screamed “Fuck you!” at Weeks in court and Weeks screamed “Fuck you” back. All this in front of the jury.
Ha! Now there’s a trial that would be fun to watch! I’m guessing it is not televised?
Unfortunately no. You have to read tweets and blogs.
That’s hysterical. 🙂 You can just hear the judge saying “Counsels, control your clients!” LOL Too bad this case isn’t being televised. But, what an entertaining, disturbing and truly fascinating trial this has been. Made for the movies.
LOL. That exchange in front of the jury will never get old. heh. Thanks for that, BB.
Plus, Weeks threatened the defense attorney and asked him if he wanted to step outside. LOL
Cue lowbrow pop culture reference:
There’s little reason to suspect the proposed Texas law would far differently.
CNN: Federal judge temporarily blocks new Wisconsin abortion law
Brilliant cartoon op-ed by Matt Bors on Millennial-bashing–one of the funniest things I’ve ever read. Now they know how baby boomers feel after being blamed for everything the has happened since we were born.
“Not Everyone Gets a Trophy” Bwahahahaha! That cartoon is a novella. And, brilliant! And, it made me LOL. Literally. Thanks for that link, BB. Great way to end the evening. Good night, all. 🙂
I find it interesting that everyone is focusing on the personas rather than on the revelation that the US has wasted billions of dollars spying on its own citizens. With all the deficit hysteria you’d figure that people would be outraged that kids are going hungry so that big business can collect data that to date FAILED to prevent incidents like the Boston Marathon bombing even with the heads up of a foreign intelligence agency. In my mind, content of the message matters more than the messenger.
I agree with the above. However, I still think Snowden has made himself the story. This whole thing is playing out like some D-list version of Bourne Identity.
Why do you assume I’m not angry about domestic spying? You find it “interesting.” How nice.
Well, I’m glad that Snowden has at least stimulated a conversation and that other newspapers are now doing their own investigative reporting on domestic spying. On the other hand, I wish that while Snowden had access to all that information he had managed to find some abuses of the system and leaked those instead of focusing on how the US spies on other countries.
It’s fascinating how many people like to beat up on someone like me who is simply trying to understand how the system works and come to my own independent conclusions instead of freaking out and running around like a chicken with her head cut off. At least I have spent the time and energy reading hundreds of articles and a couple of books on the subject with more lined up to read.
I don’t know exactly how I feel about the Snowden situation and I won’t know for sure until it all shakes out. What I do know is I’d like to see real change, meaning true oversight of the government spying apparatus. I’d like to see new Congressional hearings in the manner of the Church and Polk Committees of the 1970s. Unfortunately, with our current leadership, that probably won’t happen.
We also aren’t going to be able to reverse the vast amount of data collection done by corporations–which has essentially no oversight.
I don’t know why I’m bothering to write this reply to you, CWaltz, because you ignored my carefully though out replies to your last attack on me. I guess I write about it because I’m trying to think the issue through–because it’s something I care deeply about. But I’ll never get the slightest credit for that from you, because you seem to want a knee-jerk reaction of total support for Snowden, Greenwald, and the rest of the bots.
I’ll continue to think for myself, thank you very much; and I’ll continue to read as much as I can in order to educate myself on a very complex subject.
The binary framing of either you’re for snowden or against scrutiny of the spy state is just stale now…
I don’t know how you keep doing it BB, but your coverage here is excellent (“kick ass”). It’s not easy connecting all the various threads together at all and trying to sort this. I still feel over my head when I come across all the various headlines–I’d just be lost without your blogging on this, approaching it as an old school journalism news story the way you do, and just trying to get to the bottom of things, the facts.
I admit that it does hurt my feelings when people I’ve “known” for a long time dismiss a post that I’ve spent hours researching and writing with offhand, simplistic attacks. I guess that just goes along with blogging.
I’m not assuming anything. I read the article which focused on Snowden as a persona. Where the guy goes from here shouldn’t matter to anyone other than the country who chooses to house him or for that matter how he gets there. I’m not invested in Snowden, Greenwald or anyone else. I don’t know them personally and probably never will. I AM invested in having a conversation about the billions of dollars being poured into a spy program that people find less sexy then the where, whens and whys of Snowden.
No one asked you to stop thinking for yourself. I do think that you’re making the topic far more complex then it needs to be though. Snowden isn’t a national issue, he’s being made into one to evade a conversation on the billions of dollars being funneled into spying DOMESTICALLY and at that spying domestically in a way that is so poor that even with the aid of foreign intelligence it was unable to prevent a bombing. As far as spying on other countries go, if we didn’t want to get caught doing it then perhaps we shouldn’t be doing it to begin with. And certainly if we are going to use the everybody does it defense then we shouldn’t be so outraged when others are caught spying on the US.
We are in agreement on oversight and on the fact that it certainly won’t be happening anytime soon (as evidenced by everyone’s fascination by Edward Snowden rather than by the fact that the USPS is making digital copies of your mail, your phone company is taping your calls, your network provider is storing your emails and the fact that the Justice Department recently filed a statement saying citizens have no right to know how the FISA court is ruling and how it codifies secret laws or the fact that there is little discussion that even a former FISA court member is speaking out about how one sided the process is to get these blanket warrants.
In short I’ll end with what I tend to agree with and I do so not because of Snowden or Greenwald but because I hate to think that my spouse and I risked our life for over a decade only to see that what we end up living in doesn’t resemble democracy at all and I’m noticing that secret doesn’t even seem to just apply to FISA since trade agreements are now subject to secret processes.
Let me get this straight.
1. You don’t think the operations of the NSA and the rest of the intelligence superstructure in the U.S. are all that complex. I’m the one making it a complex issue? Really?
2. You’re concerned about domestic spying, but it doesn’t strike you as odd that Snowden has leaked nothing new about it? Even the “revelation” of the “PRISM” computer software isn’t new, and Greenwald misinterpreted what it does. And BTW, Greenwald hasn’t argued for more oversight. His attitude is utopian–as far as I can tell he wants to shut down the entire U.S. national security apparatus. Meanwhile he lives in Brazil.
3. You think the U.S. should not spy on other countries. That is the only role of the NSA, so that means you want it shut down, like Snowden and Greenwald do? Fine with me, but not very realistic.
4. So we should just accept that most countries spy on us and go about our business, happily allowing China to steal secrets from the U.S. government, U.S. universities, and U.S. businesses and pass them on to Iran and North Korea? Because it’s somehow wrong to spy on other countries and we should set an example? Without spying we won’t know if another country or a terrorist group is about to launch an attack on us. But we can’t do espionage for some reason you haven’t shared.
5. At the same time, you want the govt to “prevent bombings” by terrorists.
OK. Well you go right ahead and patronize me and lecture me all you want in your now only hit-and-run comments here at Sky Dancing blog. I’ve tried to engage with you; but you aren’t interested in what I have to say, so I’m done.
Thank you, this pinpoints some of what is bothering me about Snowden, Greenwald, et al. It all screams libertarian–shut it all down. Offering no meaningful alternative…