Lobbing familiar attacks over familiar differences is what candidates do before elections. But at this stage of the campaign it also serves to deepen enmity between party factions, without the added benefit of bringing any new information to bear.
That’s why it makes Democrats uncomfortable, and why Republicans can barely contain their enthusiasm.
Unlike most political spats, though, this one turned out to be at least minimally instructive, because it underscored a legitimate strategic concern many liberals have about Sanders and his allies. It’s also newsworthy coming on the eve of Thursday’s Clinton-Sanders debate, because it promises to bring the question of Sanders’s electability to the forefront.
No kidding. I’m amazed that Bernie bro Beutler finally realized that.
Kevin Drum: Yes, Bernie Sanders Is Questioning Hillary Clinton’s Integrity. You can read the whole thing at Mother Jones, but here’s the conclusion:
Is it true that Sanders is just too nice a guy to name names? Maybe. But I’m a little less inclined to be generous about this kind of thing. To my ears, it sounds more like typical political smarm. “Hey, I’m not saying she’s a crook. I’m just saying she drives a pretty nice car, amirite?” Contra Sargent, I’d say that Sanders is very much questioning the integrity of Clinton herself, and doing it in a pretty familiar way.
Yes, Virginia, Bernie Sanders is just another politician. Sorry you had to find out kiddies.
— Sincerely, The Reality-Based Community.
Meanwhile the people who actually care about the Democratic Party and don’t want to lose the presidency to some insane Republican are getting worried.
Politico: Sanders under fire from Senate Democrats. A number of Sanders’ Senate colleagues are beginning to speak out:
They’re criticizing his platform as naive, taking exception to his criticism of Clinton as a fake progressive, and imploring the media to put the Vermont independent and self-described democratic socialist under the microscope.
“You need to start asking him questions about his plans and his background,” said Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.). Ask “how he’s going to address foreign policy and national security, how he’s going to pay for his higher education and health care proposals. There are a lot of unanswered questions.”
Shaheen has begun making that argument in her home state as New Hampshire prepares for another referendum between Clinton and Sanders. And she’s being joined by a growing group of Sanders critics after he made the claim Wednesday, on Twitter and the campaign trail, that Clinton is a progressive “some days, yes. Other days she announces she is a moderate.”
Oh really? Well at least she’s a Democrat.
“Hillary Clinton is a progressive and I don’t think any other progressive gets to judge … and be the gatekeeper of progressivism,” said Sen. Brian Schatz (D-Hawaii), who won a 2014 Senate primary running as the more liberal candidate. “We need to remember who our real adversary is, and that’s the tea party and what they’ve done to the country.”
Some went further, saying Sanders, who caucuses with Democrats but identifies as independent, isn’t really a Democrat..
“Hillary’s a progressive in the way she views the issues every day,” said liberal Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.). “Bernie’s a Democrat some days. And that’s a fact with evidence.” ….
Even members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, of which Sanders is the only Senate member, bristled at his attempts to label Clinton.
“I certainly think she is progressive enough. One could ask progressive enough for what?” said Rep. Karen Bass (D-Calif.). “Although there are a lot of positions that Senator Sanders has that I agree with in theory, I also believe that we are not going to get [them] done in this current political environment.”
One more. David Axelrod remembers very clearly what happened when he and his candidate took Hillary Clinton for granted in New Hampshire in 2008. He writes at CNN:
Famous last words
Is New Hampshire about to flip the script for Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders?
We landed in Nashua before dawn, a conquering political army arriving in New Hampshire to negotiate the terms of surrender.
Hours earlier, Barack Obama had won a stunning victory in the 2008 Iowa caucuses and the putative nominee, Hillary Clinton, had placed a disappointing third. Now we had a chance for a quick knockout. Two straight wins and the nomination battle effectively would be over.
But even as Obama was triumphantly crisscrossing New Hampshire, the state’s famously contrarian voters were preparing to rewrite the script.
Five days before the primary, Obama was leading Sen. Clinton and a field of other challengers by a gaudy double-digit margin. The Sunday before the Tuesday primary, our own polling showed us ahead by eight.
But on primary day, Hillary was resuscitated by the voters of New Hampshire with a two point upset victory.
The message for campaigns here? Don’t take anything for granted in the Granite State.
That’s exactly what I’ve been saying for weeks. New Hampshire voters switch back and forth and often don’t make up their minds until the last minute. Sometimes they’re not even sure if they’ll vote in the Republican or Democratic primary until they get to the polling place.
I just hope Bernie keeps insulting Hillary right up until next Tuesday. I guarantee it will only help her with NH voters.
So anyway, here’s a fresh thread to share your thoughts on what has been happening today and your reactions to tonight’s debate. Have fun!
peej
Carissa
bostonboomer
ecocatwoman
mablue2
peggysue22
quixote
skydancingguestblogger
Mona (aka Wonk the Vote)
Sky Dancing 
when do we start
It’s 9:00 pm ET isn’t it? This is where I am: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc2/watch/live-msnbc-democratic-candidates-debate-615981635659
Right now! 8 CST.
Thanks, bostonboomer. I hope your cold gets better soon.
Ditto BB, thank you, thank you, and hope you feel better.
I have the MSNBC coverage on right now. It’s making me want to shove splints under my fingernails to distract from the aggravation. The pre-NH coverage is, if anything, even more obnoxious than it was eight years ago, when Matthews, Russert, Olbermann, etc. were all but orgasming on the air with glee at the prospect of Clinton’s campaign going down. I’d love to get a repeat of the outcome. The footage of those jerks that night before the polls closed was priceless. They’d clearly seen the exit-poll data, and they all looked like they’d come from a lemon-sucking contest.
Jasus….don’t resort to torture, pass the lemon sours.
The MSNBC bros are saying Hillary is on the defensive. I disagree. Bernie is on the defensive after his arrogant attacks on Hillary yesterday.
I hope the moderators help Hillary 110% tonight. And I wanted to talk about that friggin’ revolution that Bernie doesn’t seem to know shit about.
Yeah, my daughter, pregnant and single, and turned away from housing, because she was considered a welfare queen, and not worthy of housing. I want to talk about my mother, who died 13 years ago on this very day, and had to survive on $739 dollars a month, until I could find a reasonable nursing home nearby me, where I could check in on her and make sure she was treated good by everyone, including the aides at the hospital. Then one day a social worker ask me what did she do for a living………well, she had 7 children, and was eking out a living as a washer woman, and ironing clothes for the rich for 20cents per piece, and back in the day there wasn’t social security or welfare. Where she relied on the church, until they gave her up, and rented to another family for more money. Where her kids all were raised to work, even though the pay was lousy, we had to help each other to make ends meet in what was then, the St. Thomas Projects, in New Orleans, La. Sad what a divorce, can do to a family back then. We were out of sight and out of mind. And it’s still that way.
When welfare did come through it was on the back of my dads social security. Yes, it is true, the social workers did come to inspect and inquire, if a abled bodied boyfriend lived with us.
Anyways sad life, but you know where the revolution came from, other women helping women.
That Bernie will never understand.
http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/rachel-maddow-tells-playboy-why-bernie-wont-win-and-republican-voters-are-drunk/283985
She called Hillary a liar.
I’ve like Rachel over the years, and I’ve not liked her. I remember back in 2008, with all the frigging sexism going on then, and (here it is again raising it’s ugly head) I remember every other word out of her mouth was Obama, this, that, Obama, that, this. Now she is into using Bernie, and feel the bern…………………..
She can twist and shout like the rest of the media.
Rachel has good and bad moments.
I don’t know if I can stand to listen to these bros very long.
Today is hubby’s birthday. I can’t join you tonight. Fuck them and fuck NH if they vote wrong. We’re still going to win. I’m going to have some tea and go to bed. Cheers all!
Happy Belated Birthday……..Cheers.
Sheesh. Bernie has no specifics. “Wall Street” will pay for it.
My heart is with y’all. Just leaving the Atlanta suburbs. Heading over the mountain to Banjoville. Give him hell Hillary!
~ ᏠᏠ Ϣѧʟτṡ ~ ʂɛŋɬ ʄཞơɱ ɱყ ı℘ɧơŋɛ…
>
she nailed on progressivism
He learned early that if you talk and talk you win.
Loop holes schmoop holes. Waste abuse and fraud. Blah blah blah. There is always painless money to pay for crap. I prefer action to rhetoric. We all have progressive ideals. This is nit-picking bullshit.
What is a progressive? I guess kidlets have to learn. Demo versus gatekeeper.
What does fund raising have to do with being president?
NO PAC?
Yes address it Hillary!
I don’t think I can listen to him much longer.
Bernie does not want to come out as a democrat, but wants to use the structure of the party or his advantage.
for his advantage.
I was going to say the. same thing. He is a Socialist to the bone.
Just popped back in to say, yes Fannie, yes! He said “socialist” and then he slapped “Democratic” on it to mollify it and compare himself to FDR. And that, they insist is “authentic”.
“I can get things done”. Go Hillary!
After he screams “I’m as mad as hell and I’m not gonna take it anymore!” what does Howard Beale have to say? I am not interested in have the angriest President in history. What is Bernie other that grumpy?
Hey Bernie, who was doing all that deruglation? Try the GOP controlled congress, by the name of Newt Gingrich, and Tom Delay………….it wasn’t the fucking democrats.
Sorry/spelling, deregulation……..
Sanders is still doing it and not addressing her.
Never back down!!!
Hillary just blasted his ass on his deregulation vote!
She’s right: the Right would love nothing more then to run against him.
For sure, they are ready to wipe his ass cross the floor.
She is proud of all the money spent against her. You voted against deregulation and Lehmans’ He still is sticking to his mantra. she is going to have to go at him hard.
I am so proud she doesn’t take shit from anybody.
True. She has had years of practice.
How come his screaming is acceptable? Oh right, he’s a male.
Nailed it, Pat!
Sometimes you have to go against the grain to get people to hear. Sanders certainly had them trained on the big money bribes. Did you hear the applause? If she keeps at it maybe a few will hear her.
Here are the words they clap to when listening to Bernie: Super Pac, and Wall Street, and big money.
Of course he doesn’t have anything to say about the rightist super PACs that are helping him.
Heck no, what are you talking about? Whut?
Smiling on you roof.
Public funding system is old and won’t work.
Wall Street and Clinton. Speaking fees. Explain my record went on speaking
The biggest impact is how these companies, Wall Street, and NRA, are allowed to buy out congress, to oversee these special interest groups.
Let’s get on to the NRA Lobbyist Bernie.
He lists problems as if that is a plan or an agenda????
I know. Drives me nuts.
Now the want the transcripts of her speeches……….oh fuck, release your emails. How about everybody else be required to do the same.
LOOK at her record, what she is proposing……….they don’t want to hear Hillary.
Are we learning anything new here, besides the fact that she endlessly has to justify herself?
Well roof, we face problems, and what Hillary is saying is that the republicans have brought a lot of these problems on by weakening regulations…congress controls the funds, yet they enable abuses, like that of what is going in Flint, Michigan. She’s telling the truth, if the republicans get elected, we can all kiss our asses goodbye.
Bernie, Bernie – Republicans have fought forever to kill regulation! Let’s talk NRA……….Bernie, talk about power.
Sanders is like a car that can only go one speed. He can’t walk any of this back. This stuff will wear on people, particularly in other states.
That was a good one from Rachel. Bernie can you work with big business to do good things?
Apparently it will be an antagonistic relationship.
Hot shit: there are good corporations, and bad corporations, and good guys with guns, and bad guys with guns.
That’ hot.
Lol
I am sick of the hostility though. It borders on disrespect.
Yeah, the Bernie condescension is palpable tonight.
I hope those words don’t come back on her to keep ground troops off the table.
A vote in 2002 is not a vote to defeat ISIS, Good Hillary.
Here’s Bernie’s response to foreign policy, go to my website and see what I have stated. Well, I’ll be, isn’t that what the republicans say during their debates!
Bernie will not have a quagmire. Must be muslims on the ground as per King Abdullah.
Bernie: If Obama leaves you 10,000 troops on the ground will you withdraw them? Blather blather.
He really has no background in foreign policy a a all.
Hillary is fighting like hell, and I love it! I’m proud of her for standing up for herself.
You nailed it BB.
Bernie can’t answer the question….He doesn’t know about Afghanistan, he’s not strong on the subject, so he has avoided the subject twice, and wants to change the subject at hand.
Wow. Bernie’s getting some hard questions from Chuck Todd.
I’m actually surprised that the questions are pretty hard hitting for him.
Clinton: 10,000 troops would make an evaluation at the time of office arc of instabililty and we have to pay attention and build coalitions.
The vote on the Iraq War was14 years ago!!
Foreign policy is her forte.
Bernie, Bernie, Canada just elected Trudeau, and he said he doesn’t want any involvement in Iraq or Syria.
Once again, Hillary you vote for the war in 2002, and your judgment was a bad mistake. John Kerry voted for the same fucking resolution!
Sanders: foreign policy what is your? COALITION. Clinton, Sanders made concerning statements re his policy. You are voting for both domestic and Commander in Chief.
Sanders: Clinton has experience but doesn’t have judgement. Clinton yes I do and lists a bunch of decisions.
He did say we should normalize with Iran in, the second debate?
4th debate: SANDERS: I think what we’ve got to do is move as aggressively as we can to normalize relations with Iran. Understanding that Iran’s behavior in so many ways is something that we disagree with; their support terrorism, the anti-American rhetoric that we’re hearing from of their leadership is something that is not acceptable.
Chuck Todd demonstrating that Bernie is clueless about foreign policy.
I couldn’t see the comparison of Cuba to Iran……
That was silly time.
Clinton: RE: ash Carter, worry about N Korea and they could make a missile that will reach Hawaii. So Okinawa or Guam, or both?
I think in regards to military power, Russia is Number one……..but Iran is the biggest problem because it can destabilize the countries politically.
I think this thing about VA problems and privatizing is overblown, it’s not going to happen.
In the current environment any attempt to engage to improve can turn into chaos.
Hear ya.
Koch Brothers have begun a charge to privatize Veterans health care. Clinton I will not allow this. We need to fix what’s broken. Sanders I tried to fix it but when it came to Republicans they don’t want to pay for vets.
Hey, Chris Matthews said it best, if the Boston Celtics played basketball, and the score was 119 to 118, somebody won. And it winning score isn’t 118.
Bernie, the Repubs Willamette you so bad in the general you will be lucky to carry Vermont.
I Harley the spell check on my Kindle. That comment should read ” will burn”.
Sanders: even dems who love you worry about your electability. I will be the strongest because Dems have a large turnout. I will have oodles of young people. and create a spread to others.
Clinton: I am the strongest candidate. I’ve been vetted.Whoever runs will face a withering onslaught. It’s less winning and more what I can do after.
Retroactive classifications: we have to get to the bottom of it.
I disagree with her on the death penalty. I oppose it but many still do.
Me too Pat. But I tell you the example of McVey gets under my skin.
Yes, I oppose the Death penalty as well. however, I wonder if this isn’t another case of what can be done versus lofty goals. Moving the death penalty to reflect extreme federal cases could be doable if States are more strictly regulated as to criminals rights and are subject to censure by a body of the Federal government.
Clinton: death penalty. Do you support capitol punishment State must meet the highest standards or it must end. It is appropriate for Feds. and for very limited appropriate crimes.
Sanders: I understand what Clinton has said but too many innocent people have been executed especially minorities. Too many barbaric crimes but I don’t want to see death penalty.
Whoa, the republican congress sure as hell don’t want to hear Hillary on Flint, Michigan.
Flint; Clinton fix their pipes and the Feds have ways to fix them and then bill Michigan. Sanders Snyders should resign. Children are being poisoned. the idea that there has bee no dramatic response is beyond reasoning. If it were a white community it wouldn’t be the same.
Trade. Clinton: only responsible for voting on trade as a senator and voted against CAFTA. We have to trade and it has to be mutual. I am against TPP. Sanders
Talking Nafta and TTP, is talking apples and oranges. We have been informally doing trade with Mexico, and Canada for decades, with no formal agreements. I know one damn thing I worked in the California Canneries, and I can tell you who I worked with, and the conditions, and I can tell you about the fields, cause I worked them too.
How do you prioritize big political things to accomplish? Long and thoughtful from Clinton, mantra from Sanders. He will only nominate Supreme Court justices that will get rid of Citizens United.
He sure doesn’t know how the sausage is made given he’s supposed to be a sausage maker.
Lol
Clinton have a constant dialogue with people so they know what is going on.
Clinton: bring your heart and head. Sanders: my dad came form Poland died young would be thrilled to see his son on this stage. We are back into the mantra.
I agree Roof…….I hope the people in New Hampshire agree too.
Yeah, me too, Fannie.
Here is what Hillary said that nails it………..when you are in the White House you have got to be ready for anything that might come through those doors…..and how many times has Pres. Obama been at an event, and said one thing, knowing damn well what just walked in the door, and had to deal with the hot shit hitting the fan.
Obama would have been better to have more chats with the public, and I think that is partly what Clinton was alluding to when she talked about communicating with citizens.
It was better without O’Malley.
I am still wondering what was new tonight?
Well, the question was asked about what they each want to do in their first year in office and Bernie is going to get rid of Citizens United. I can only assume that means that he plans to take out contracts on a select number of Supreme Court Justices and put their replacements on the court in record time with no opposition from the Senate. His assassination plans may also explain his opposition to the death penalty.
Let me put this another way – his answer was stupid.
Lol
Ended on a high note. Good for us. Hills is the best. My only problem with Bernie is he complains without a specific plan. Hills has been in the ring better. She knows what to do.
Once again there was not a single question on abortion, women’s rights, women’s autonomy, the Republican states doing everything possible to reverse Roe and shut down Planned Parenthood.
That has gotten totally lost in all the fawning and @ss-kissing of Chuck Todd and Rachel Maddow for conducting the greatest debate EVAH!
Thanks for bringing that up. Most of last nights debate was spent talking about Bernie’s ONE issue.
thanks for bringin that up.
What did I tell you? NH tracking poll now shows Hillary only 15 points behind Bernie.
MANCHESTER, N.H. (WHDH) – Watch out Bernie, here comes Hillary!
The pun-ditz (aka Mika Brezenski) kept harping on how Hills was so well prepared.
A back-handed compliment because MessNBC can’t admit that she is SMARTER and MORE EXPERIENCED and just knows her sh!t backward and forward.
However, anyone with eyes could clearly see, Weakened@Bernie’s lays out the problems very passionately, Hills lays out THE solutions, just as passionately.
That is the Debate and the election right there.
You said “Geeze why didn’t I ever notice how arrogant this man is before?” I believe he’s just uttering whatever he’s told and the ‘tellers’ have just about run out of how far they can stretch what little he’s done our can do.
Yes, sweetheart he does have a lot of ‘good ideas’ as well as seeming sincere but 95% of them are DOA. While Hill not only has good ideas but knows what is practical and how to get them in play.
I honestly believe the young team are writing his ‘scripts’ and we’re going to see more out and out lies, as that well has run dry.
This article is rather long, 24 pages. It’s worth the read, and file under Sexism and Hillary Clinton. It’ll take you back, and you’ll have flashes that you wanted to forget about.
http://mediamatters.org/research/2016/02/05/a-comprehensive-guide-to-sexist-attacks-on-hill/199700
8 years later and it’s the same old shit, different names except for Hillary. This morning read a Dan Balz article from The Washington Post.
Sanders described with: “strong showing” in Iowa. I think “lost.” “2nd place.”
Sanders called: “audacious.” I think: “naive.”
Hillary “offers the possibility of something historic — the first female president of the United States — but that alone has not been enough to generate the same kind of energy that Sanders’s campaign enjoys. Sanders has proved to be a more-than-capable candidate who has learned on the job and grown the longer the campaign has gone on. Rumpled as ever, Sanders has managed to project his own quirky authenticity championing an agenda that has caught fire at the grass roots.”
So yelling, finger-pointing, pouting, and spouting unrealistic ideas is “authentic.”
“Getting things done,” on the other hand, is boring.
Well, pro-bros, there are millions of us who know that getting things done is what counts. Pouting and quirks do not impress us. And we will stay with Hillary, who inspires us!
Yeah, the brogans can go out and make all the money in the world, and nobody questions that, but let a woman make money talking about her global experiences, talking about history, talking about women’s rights, talking about the great country we live in, and Obamacare and foreign
affairs. Hey, they don’t approve of that. Like they are God. They make it sound like she only gave speeches to Wall Street, she gives speeches all over this country and the world, on many speeches. You know these brogans, they get paid consulting fees, and all kinds of other perks when they step out of office. But not Hillary, no we want to know word for word what she has been saying across this country for the last 40 years. Let us never forget what happened to Shirely Sherrod, and the speech she gave that they hacked to death, and made her resign. Horseshit.
None of that applies to men. Just Hillary, just women………why because Bernie wants to do exactly what the republicans do, fine something to twist and lie about. Feed the wingnuts.
I can’t tell how I felt to hear a young woman who watched the debate last night say that her feminism is so completely different than Hillary’s feminism, I was like whut?
Keep on Lifting Us Up Sister!